Announcing our first Finding Regenerative Food Free Consumer Webinar – Dec. 1st at 11am eastern – featuring farmers, chefs and food companies on the regenerative journey…… from our Global Food & Farm Online Community. Sign up for this and future webinars on our new website: globalfoodfarm.com
In our first webinar - again, coming up on December 1st at 11am eastern….…., you will get to meet producers of ancient whole grain flour and pasta, gluten free rice flour and pizza crusts……snack foods…. Made from sorghum and millet……Vegetables like onions and squash……. and grass-fed, regeneratively-raised beef
---
This episode features a conversation with several of the regenerative farmers and food companies in our Global Food & Farm Community……..who you will get to talk with on the webinar. This week, they share their regenerative conversion stories ……and what their commitment to being on the regenerative journey looks like now.
Brought to you by the Global Food and Farm Online Community
Click here to subscribe on your favorite platform or click here to listen on our website.
Support the show through Patreon -- Patreon.com/TastingTerroir
Announcing our first Finding Regenerative Food Free Consumer Webinar – Dec. 1st at 11am eastern – featuring farmers, chefs and food companies on the regenerative journey…… from our Global Food & Farm Online Community. Sign up for this and future webinars on our new website: globalfoodfarm.com
In our first webinar - again, coming up on December 1st at 11am eastern….…., you will get to meet producers of ancient whole grain flour and pasta, gluten free rice flour and pizza crusts……snack foods…. Made from sorghum and millet……Vegetables like onions and squash……. and grass-fed, regeneratively-raised beef
---
This episode features a conversation with several of the regenerative farmers and food companies in our Global Food & Farm Community……..who you will get to talk with on the webinar. This week, they share their regenerative conversion stories ……and what their commitment to being on the regenerative journey looks like now.
Brought to you by the Global Food and Farm Online Community
Click here to subscribe on your favorite platform or click here to listen on our website.
Support the show through Patreon -- Patreon.com/TastingTerroir
Hey friends, have you missed me? I'm so sorry we missed last week and are a little late getting the next episode to you. The challenges of sometimes doing 20 anything by yourself caught up to me, I will admit and throw a little sickness. In there and well, that's what you have. But we are making up for it. This week, and I'm super excited to. Share all of that with you to really launch the beginning of an opportunity for you to have actual conversations with some of these amazing farmers. And food makers that we are profiling and sharing stories with you about on a monthly basis going forward in our new webinar series that we're going to be telling you about in just a minute. But welcome back to our podcast Tasting Terroir, a journey that helps you more accurately navigate the marketing claims of better for you food by understanding the link between healthy soil and the flavor of your food. I'm your host, Sarah Harbor. This episode features a conversation I had with several of our regenerative farmers and food companies. Many of them we've interviewed in previous episodes of the podcast from our global food and farm community. And by the way, if you are curious about that community, we just have launched a new website that I built myself, Globalfoodfarm.com or Globalfoodandfarm.com, which will be profiling and being able to link you to these fine folks as well as explaining the benefits of being part of our community. What is it that we do? What do we provide? And how could it maybe benefit you? So please do go over there and check that out. Globalfoodfarm.com as I said, we will be telling you directly how you can talk to many of these amazing folks. And in our episode today, you're going to get to hear from them stories about their conversion to the regenerative mindset. How is it that they came to make this choice, to go in this direction of working with nature and focusing on continuous improvement and not just yield? It's a big change. And so some of the reasons behind that change are the focus of this episode. As I mentioned, I am super excited to share with you today that you will be having a chance, an ongoing chance to actually talk directly to these folks in a webinar series that we are we are launching on December. Today I'm happy to announce our first finding regenerative food free consumer webinar.
It will be December at 11:00 a.m. Eastern time us on a Zoom call.
Sara Harper:And to be part of it, all you have to do is go to. Our new website, globalfoodfarm.com or globalfoodandfarm.com, and sign up on the form on the front page that just says you're interested, and you'll get an email with the zoom call information, as well as updates about future events like webinars and opportunities to talk directly with these producers. And what it's going to be as. We'Re going to give the producers and. Food companies a chance to describe what it is they do and how they do it. But mainly it is a chance for you to ask them your questions, not just about the food they produce, but about this Regenerative movement, about other claims. That you've seen from other brands, perhaps. That you want to get an insider's take on. Really, it's up to you wherever you. Want to take it. This is your opportunity to find Regenerative food if you want to actually purchase it, and also to find out more about it from people who are right in the midst of it. So, again, that webinar will be December 1
11:00 A.m., and we will try to have these on a monthly basis.
Sara Harper:And if you sign up on our. Website, Globalfoodfarm.com, you will be able to get the call information and notices about upcoming events. On this December 1 webinar, you will. Be getting to meet producers of ancient. Whole grain flour and pasta, gluten free flour and pizza crusts snack foods made from sorghum and millet vegetables like onions and squash, and grass fed Regeneratively raised beef. So really, if you wanted to, you could buy a whole Regenerative meal feast, really, just from the producers on this call. So no more excuses about not being able to find Regenerative food. That's going to be definitely a theme of this episode. No excuses. So again, sign up on the webinar, Global Foodfarm.com. I know I hate being repetitive, but unfortunately, you apparently have to hear something three times before you'll actually get it in your mind. So, Globalfoodfarm.com, sign up on the form and you'll get the zoom call. You get to be a part of. The webinar, get to meet these amazing. People and expand your life all for free. So do take advantage of that. With that, let's dive into our conversation with these amazing farmers brands and farm brands who will be participating in the December 1 webinar and get to hear more from them about what it is that made them shift into this Regenerative journey. All right, well, I am thrilled today to be joined by several members of our global food and farm community, and that is made up of farmers and food companies, chefs that are really on this Regenerative journey. And we're lucky enough to have a number of the folks in this community really actually making ingredients and products that people can buy that carry with them the knowledge of how they were grown and the continuous improvement that is continuing to go. So I want to just go around the group and first of all, have each of them just do a quick introduction and where they're farming and what they're going, and then we'll continue on the conversation from there. So we'll start with Craig.
Craig Cameron:Hi, I'm Craig Cameron. I farm in central Alberta, Canada with my wife, Miriam. We got two kids. And then we farm with my inlaws we raise beef forage finished beef. Yeah, it's getting me forage finished beef now.
Sara Harper:Yeah, forage beef. Beef, yes. And many of these folks we have done podcast episodes on and so I'll link to the show notes below the different episodes that feature some of these folks so you can learn more about them in depth. So, Diana, let's go to you.
DeAnna Lozensky:Hi, I'm Deanna Lozinski. I farm in central North Dakota with my husband, Kelly, and we grow a variety of small grains, typically in our rotation. And we have introduced heritage grain, wheat, Egyptian hall of barley. And we launched a small brand called Guardian Grains, where we sell our whole grain stone, milled flour and artisan pasta with the grains that we're growing here in North Dakota.
Sara Harper:That's great. And Jay, I know you're driving, but you can give us a little introduction.
DeAnna Lozensky:Sure.
Jay Brandt:Jay Brandt. Here Grant Family Farms in central Ohio. I farm with my father David and son Christopher. My wife and second son, I think, also have seen business that's on farm there. We've been involved in conservation practices, meaning to regenerative for about 48 to 50 years, grow primarily corn, soybeans and meat, but have started growing corn and meat varieties. And also started a local grain hub with about five or six other like minded producers in the area to supply whole grain flowers in central Ohio area in west.
Sara Harper:Why don't you give us a little introduction of who you are and what you're growing.
Wes Henthorne:Okay. I manage a ranch that's north of Big, Denver's, Montana, and I've been here for coming up on 40 years, managing the same place. And we started our organic journey in and by the time we found out what regenerative was, we were doing it. It's kind of how we evolve, but basically all that we sell is beef and it's certified organic grass finished. And we do have occasional tours of the ranch we market primarily in the state we've just started in the past couple of years, doing some website sales that's been somewhat promising, but it's not a big volume. And we shop hard for stores in Montana. We're getting more and more people all the time, and especially in Bozeman and Billings were situated between them, so that helps. But we primarily wholesale our products to retailers. The Community Food Coop in Bozeman is our largest customer.
DeAnna Lozensky:Great.
Sara Harper:And we're lucky enough to to have two brands with us. I say lucky because there aren't nearly enough of them actually working with farmers and sourcing regeneratively grown ingredients. So jennifer kohler with around The World gourmet. Why don't you introduce yourself?
Jennifer Kocher:Yes, Sarah, thanks for having us. I'm the owner of around the World Gourmet, as Sarah mentioned. And we've also started another DBA called Regenerative Mills. I've been in the food industry manufacturing since 2005, started in 2014, baking gluten free vegan pizza crusts. And I met you and decided that regenerative was the way to go. So we threw your network. We're able to meet a lot of the farmers and started a partnership with a farmer, Adam Chapel, in our group and buying rice from him directly. And we're milling it, so we decided to buy a meal. We're able to mill other gluten free grains as well. So we're in millet tests and what else? Chickpeas, things of that nature. So we haven't started doing that yet, but we are operational and hoping to grow.
Sara Harper:That's great. And you're in Ohio, right?
Jennifer Kocher:Yeah. Eastern Ohio. Central eastern Ohio. So we're about 1 hour from Pittsburgh, 2 hours from Columbus. Hour and 45 minutes, really? And about close to 3 hours from Cleveland.
Joni Kindwall-Moore:Okay.
Sara Harper:And another brand that we have lucky enough to have, joni Kinball Moore with Snacktivist. Why don't you introduce yourself?
Joni Kindwall-Moore:Yeah. Hi, I'm Joanie. And I'm the founder of Snack of US. We're based in Idaho, and we are definitely on the brand side. I actually were not vertically integrated, so I don't have a farm. I don't have a processor, I don't have a mill, I don't have a dealer. But we're hoping that that can position us in an interesting location in the business world where we can help facilitate, pull through of different regenerative grains and legumes both and be that market force so we can be more nimble. We can do aggregate sourcing, so that enables us to take on bigger contracts that a lot of times vertically integrated models can't because they have, like, a finite amount of materials. And so that's kind of our goal. We've always been focused on ancient grains. It's like, our major focus, the millet as a family, so sorghum proto millette and other millets, we're actually interested in developing a market for, like, Pearl and Foxtail and other millets that are important in regenerative rotations. We know a ton of farmers that grow them, but there is not any domestic sourcing program for them at all in the grain form. It's always grown for pasture or for hay. Some of the Fox hills are actually grown for, like, an animal feed, and we want to change that. So our focus of our brand, like, we do make baking mixes. We do make some finished products. We're trying to get that finished product line launched. And again, it's just always, like, all the steps. So we have awesome farmers that grew for us this year, and we're still struggling to get it through the value chain. Like, behold, while still maintaining providence and still maintaining all the specifications that we need, like gluten free. That's a source of frustration to us. Sometimes I'm like, oh, my goodness, I can't wait till we have a non gluten free line. Because we're not out to deglutini the world. We're just out to add value to the grain sector. And we really feel like to do that and to disrupt this notion of grains being empty calories, we have to add diversity back to grain so yeah, that being said, that's what we do.
Sara Harper:All right, well now I want to ask each of you to share, if possible, the moment or moment, one of the moments that kind of led you to really make a change in your mindset around how you farm or how you source toward regenerative. And we have a lot of our podcast episodes are exploring what is regenerative and explore the importance of it being a mindset and a set of principles and not reducing it down to a checklist of practices that some practices are very important. But it is really that continuous improvement journey and that working with the soil to enhance soil health and true curiosity as well as outcomes that you can measure all these things. So if you want to know really what is regenerative, listen to the other episodes. We've got a whole bunch on that. But this episode, I really want for you all in our audience to hear from farmers that have actually and brands that have actually committed to this their mindset and what are some of the things that help them make that pretty big decision to risk what you're doing. Any time you change something in a business, it's a big risk. And in something like farming, where you have there's a social component to it too, like your neighbors, everybody's doing things a certain way and when you start doing things differently, well, then you stand out and there's all sorts of stuff that comes with that. So it's a big deal to change how you do what you do. So Craig, we'll start with you and maybe share. Is there one moment that kind of was a tipping point?
Craig Cameron:It's kind of, I guess, scary for me because I could get emotional about it.
Sara Harper:Good.
Craig Cameron:So like, I guess growing up and kind of starting on the farm that I grew up on, I was always interested in helping people and helping the planet. And I went off to university and got my bachelor's degree in environmental chemistry.
Sara Harper:Wow.
Craig Cameron:And so my goal then was to try and help people get clean water and that was kind of the vision I had going into university. But by the end of university, I realized there was a lot of people that were working on that and that I was more in a position to help on the food side of things. And so I started on that journey and then I had a bit of a setback in my early 20s when my dad, who was kind of my cheerleader on that, he passed away. And so then I kind of had a rough spot there and kind of just walked away from that and went, I'm just going to go work cattle and just do that side thing. We started farming with my inlaws here. And then the next big thing in my life was the birth of my daughter and she had severe HIE at birth and has a lot of disabilities. And so she's totally Gtube fed. And we kind of walked into that like, okay, like, she's not going to be picky. We want to be able to support her the best we can, so let's find what's going to be the best, most nutritious, best food we can give her. And that's when we kind of got on the regenerative path of, like yeah, everything that I've been learning about regenerative just ticks all the boxes on what we want to do to support her and to support the rest of our family and then also our customers. So that was the big couple moments. That kind of a crazy path that got us here.
Sara Harper:Craig wow. Yeah. That's so powerful. That's so powerful. And I'm so glad, too, that you recognize that you have this huge ability to affect the food system. I'm sure it must feel sometimes like you're just a drop in the ocean.
Craig Cameron:Well, it's the toughest thing, I think, for most of the farmers, is we're doing all these good things on the production end and it's so hard to get it to the customer where they know that they're getting that value. When we have extra stuff, it just goes into the regular packing plans and just gets mixed with everything else. So it's really nice when we can get that product to people that appreciate it and know that they are getting the value that we're producing.
Sara Harper:Yeah. Well, Deanna, let's hear your conversion story.
DeAnna Lozensky:We came from a conventional grain operation, and that involved no till. For us, we're more of a nevertail situation. So that part has always been part of the equation of what we do. And we were what I call moron farming. So all we did was keep putting more of all of the inputs on more seed treatment, more chemical, more fertilizer, more insecticide, more fungicide, more of everything.
Sara Harper:That you were no doubt encouraged to do by several very smart people.
DeAnna Lozensky:Well, we were stuck in the paradigm of big bushels equals good farming, right? And so we chased that and we started intensively managing our wheat is what it was kind of labeled. And so my husband developed a way, this is about 15 years ago, to variable rate all of our fertilizer applications based on soil type because we were trying to be more efficient in the fertilizers that we were putting down. But instead of just now putting down NP and K, we were also putting down sulfur and zinc. So we watched our fertilizer bill climb and we watched our plant health decline. And that's really what happened. So our inputs went up and we saw disease pressure in our plants go up, the pest pressure went up, and we were always continually treating sick plants. Everything was always sick. And about nine years ago, we just couldn't do it anymore. Financially. We couldn't do it anymore labor wise. It's my husband and I we could not do it anymore, just the two of us. Sometimes there was five or six passes over the land to accomplish what we were doing. And we decided this is also too. Right around when our daughter was born, our first daughter was born, we decided we were going to have to change something and maybe if we started farming with nature instead of against it, that our plants might be able to become more resilient and start healing themselves. And so that really started down the soil health path of reducing inputs and the fertilizer applications and eliminating seed treatment and insecticides and fungicides and preharvest desiccants. All of that went away. Yeah, it's been a huge transition. And all of those things have been easy compared to what we are doing now, which is beyond farm infrastructure of cleaning, storing, processing our grain to go direct to consumer, to retailers, to restaurants and bakeries, that has been the hardest aspect of what we are doing because most farms aren't set up to do that. And so that's where we're at now. We're in the growing pain stage of it. And it made the transition to Regenerative seem a whole lot like easy compared to what we're doing now.
Sara Harper:And you've had to do that because the mills that you would send your product to to be milled aren't taking Regenerative and they aren't marketing it separately. And the brands that they sell to obviously aren't asking for it because farmers like you are having to add this kind of infrastructure, or Craig is like having to find ways to do a processing of his beef because the existing system doesn't want it, basically.
DeAnna Lozensky:Right. And my husband and I started guardian grains for that reason, to give people an option. Instead of buying conventional or organic, they could support our farm and the healing of our soil and better food. And that started with grain and then it evolved, like many things do, into stone milled flour and now artisan pasta. Those things were easy to fall into place. But like I said, the on farm infrastructure has been a real struggle for us. Well, good.
Sara Harper:Well, Jay, what is your conversion story?
Jay Brandt:As I mentioned previously, my father David has been involved with conservation practices since late 60s, early 70s. So as one of the first adopters in our region to take on notel that kind of built through the years and get his expertise in that kind of travel and meet other folks that were doing similar things and kind of would challenge him to that point where in 2010 and 2011, working with NRCS and Gay Brown, they received an S a Re grant to look at multi species cover crop blends in front of corn and bean bean rotation, which is traditional in our area. So after application of that different blends that we were looking at last month was corn production, we have to have a drought in that case. And the corn planted in those different cover crop species performed as if there was no drought in our area. So we were able to really lean a lot of information based on that collaborative work with RCS and the estimated grant. And part of that was the training as well, that was part of the grant. So we had a lot of field days to talk about what was learned and able to share that information that really defined to our process from being basically a monoculture or cover crop user to really get into the multi species and the ability to really drop fertility and synthetic inputs that we were really hesitant to do. But this gave us a real footprint on how smart and how to advise other people to do this.
Sara Harper:And Wes, was there a moment that made you want to go a different direction or a process?
Wes Henthorne:Well, it goes back quite a ways. I guess when we went organic, that was a decision made by the owners of the ranch and one that I didn't agree with, but it's their ranch and so we did it and we didn't have a general transition to organic. I just drove the bus off the cliff. Our hay production dropped about 20%. That's basically the only crop that we were raising at the time and I thought, this is it. And then you do the books at the end of the year and you realize that the drop in production was almost exactly equal financially to the reduction in the cost of the inputs for the chemicals and fertilizers that we had been using previously. And all of a sudden the organic became really intriguing. At that point it could be revenue neutral. So what do we need to do with our operation to change things? We started adding seeds to our hay fields and initially, I guess the first I remember we were trying to just add clover. We had sold most of our equipment. We put a spin spreader on the back of an ATV and we'd go out and we'd have to wait for a light snow and we'd run out. So we had tracks to follow and could see the seeds on the snow and we just broadcast the clover seed. We got away with that fairly well and did okay. And then we had an old disc drill that we took out and we realized that it wouldn't get into sod very well, but it would let us meet our seeds. And so we started coming up with seed blends that would have three or four different plants in the mix and do that. But when we really turned the corner was about five years ago, we bought a notel drill and that's been a huge game changer for us. I think Ten is the fewest varieties that we've had in the drill box at any one time. When we're seeding, we see range land, we see former crop land, we have irrigated ground that we see. We come up with different blends for all, and we do use some seed treatments that are built specifically for us to encourage life. And I guess that's probably the neatest thing we think about what we do is I have relatives that farm and ranch, and they are obsessed with killing weeds, and we are obsessed with making more vibrant communities of plants on the ranch. And it's the difference between actually living a really positive or a really negative lifestyle, and it makes everything different in your world to be doing that, between just working on improving the diversity of plants on the landscape and doing that. It was a few years ago, Gabe Brown was kind of touring the state and speaking different places, and I guess that's when we actually realized that, hey, that's what we do. We're regenerative.
Sara Harper:Now, Jennifer, I know you're not a farmer, but you're a brand, and you mentioned a little bit already about making a decision to really go toward regenerative and make your brand about that. What were some of the things that led up to that? And was there a tipping point experience?
Jennifer Kocher:So I've always been, even as a kid, an advocate of the earth and always respecting it not littering, recycling, and it truly, for me, is about respecting the planet that we live on. And I've always believed also that we are what we eat, and eating more nutritious foods is important to our minds and our body. And Sarah, it was you, actually, who educated me on regenerative agriculture and the benefits it has on the climate change issues that we're seeing, not to mention the health benefits for the soil and for us. So it just made sense to me immediately. And I don't know if it was a moment where I was like, oh, that's it. It was just like, oh, yeah, that makes total sense to me, I'm on board. Why didn't anyone think of this already? I mean, they had already been doing.
Sara Harper:It well, especially in the brand side and the processing side.
Jennifer Kocher:Yes, it makes sense to me on the processing side, too. I don't know why people aren't jumping in anyway. I think they will be. It just takes people longer to get there. And actually, it may not be a farmer, but I did because I wanted to test this out after you had educated me on regenerative. So I went to my grandfather's and I said, we used to do gardens there. He had always had really big gardens, and I said, I want to do a garden. Of course we had to get the grass off of there. But I did it for two years, and I didn't till that second year, and I didn't use any herbicides and pesticides, so that was fun with the weeds. But I also, for the cafe that we have had, my contractors set up a raised bed garden so that we could do vegetables. And these were all vegetables that we were growing, like tomatoes, jalapenos, green peppers, habaneros, basil, lettuce, even. We had a couple of different varieties of lettuce, cucumbers, things that we would be using in the cafe, you know, for prepared foods. And I never tilted that up. I never used herbicide. In fact, I've never even put any fertilizer on anything. And we've had tremendous success with the plants and the vegetables.
Sara Harper:Great.
Jennifer Kocher:Yeah. And we're now using Regeneratively grown rice, as I mentioned previously, and we're milling that into flour and using it in our gluten free pizza crust. And it's just also amazing to me that we are able to do all of this.
Sara Harper:That's great. So, Joanie, what about you? What led to your focus on this as a brand?
Joni Kindwall-Moore:Well, I have to say it's a little bit of a different angle, I think, like, back in the did a lot of camping and hiking in the desert Southwest, like in Utah and in the high desert and kind of became enamored with Cryptobiotic crust. I have a degree in botany, and I have a chemistry background, so I do tend to get kind of nerdy when it comes to that stuff and just was enchanted by the fact that in one of the harshest environments on the planet. It was really the delicate balance and symbiosis between different species working together that would stabilize soil and provide a substrate that plants could actually grow in, despite having horrific environmental conditions like extreme heat, extreme cold, either no water, or when it rains, it just pours and it tends to run off. I mean, the flashlight in the desert Southwest is really significant. And it was the Crypto biotech that really is the ecological framework that holds desert ecosystems together. And so, literally, that was, like, my gateway drug to thinking about Regenerative systems in general, because that same lesson that's learned from Crypto biotic crust is applied everywhere that there's any sort of soil substrate that's getting anything done at all. So unless you're on Mars, which Mars has no Crypto bite across, that's one of the reasons it has no life and has no water. It's like you start seeing it everywhere. That same lesson. And so then I went and lived in Northern Alaska and spent a lot of time in the tundra. And again, same lesson there. The resiliency of the ecosystem was stitched together and held together by the symbiotic relationships of microscopic organisms. And so that's really kind of my operating system in my head of why we need to apply the same principle to all of our arable land, whether they be pasture, going towards grazing. I grew up with cattle. I grew up on a small farm in western Oregon, and I grew up with a real connection of, like, food systems. And we had a garden that was pathetic. I don't know why. My dad had it in the worst place ever clay soil. It was a struggle. It never did well. And then one year, we decided to move it down to the back where the cattle had been, and it just was like, night and day, and my dad was like, wow, holy Smolle. And so I think that those were those early experiences that shaped my thinking to want to dedicate my life to shifting the entire food system to a more biology focused model, because once we bring back biology, everything else falls into place, and soils where that biology lives. So whether it's impacting climate because plants are the best organism on Earth, anything with the chloroplast can bring carbon out of the air and put it back in the liposphere where it belongs. That's just nature in action. So how do we optimize that? Well, agriculture is clearly the biggest mover and shaper and manipulator of all landmass, and so why not put it to work towards good? And markets move practice. And so that's why I'm totally focused on markets and developing products that help infuse need to farming systems for, like, biodiversity, because diversity on the plate ultimately drives biodiversity in the field, and that's just the way the economy works.
Sara Harper:So I am getting us all tshirts that say markets drive practice, because what an idea. What an idea.
Joni Kindwall-Moore:No, totally not.
Sara Harper:It's just convinced farmers to change and.
Joni Kindwall-Moore:Then still work like that. It doesn't work like that. And I have farmers literally calling me every week, most days, like, hi, we want to grow for snack divis. Yeah, we want to be a snack of a farmer. And I'm like, if we could get our retailers on board and actually supporting our work, we could rapidly transition. But the sales cycle, the culture, the thick headedness out there, it's a struggle.
DeAnna Lozensky:Yeah, it's a struggle.
Joni Kindwall-Moore:The struggle is real. The retailers are listening. Get your butts in gear.
Sara Harper:I'm consumers. Consumers. I mean, that's the thing. I mean, the hope for all of this really has to be on the consumers. And, I mean, anyone listening to this podcast, I think, is interested in finding better food. And, you know, one of the greatest frustrations for me and I know for many of you, I know I've heard you all hear the same thing I do, that people say, this is so great when they learn about regenerative. It's so great how it does all these great things. We just need to convince more farmers to change. And, yes, of course, that's great. And there are plenty of reasons for farmers to do this, even if there isn't a market. I mean, farmers save money. They enhance the assets of their soil. But the people that are taking this message out there are often big brands that are marketing on how great regenerative is and acting as if there's no supply, as if there's as if they can't they just can't find it. And, yes, it would take some change in the processing but you know, those guys have a lot of influence with processors so they actually said they wanted it and we commit to buying it. The processors are not stupid and they're not that stubborn. They would create it, they would bill it, they would chop it, they would do whatever needed to be done. So I just want you all as farmers and maybe share your experiences with that phenomenon. So Craig will start with you.
Craig Cameron:I think it's just a natural process of having to try and get it direct to consumer to get the benefits that it's a lot easier for people to go to a store where they get all the rest of their groceries than to come get beef from a small brand or whatever.
Sara Harper:But often they think they're getting the kind of things that you're doing or that Regenerative is doing. And that's to the point about the word and what does it mean and how does it confuse people. But it is something materially different and I'm excited that's part of what's so great about our network being connected to Dr. Joe Clapperton because people like her that can do the actual nutrient density testing and show the difference, like actual difference in the in the final product because of how it was raised. The whole point of you having to go direct to consumer is because there's not a value added pathway that will take it. Right?
DeAnna Lozensky:Yeah.
Craig Cameron:Not an easy way for being able to track and get those benefits all the way to the consumer. It's a lot easier to just mix it with all the rest of the stuff that you've got coming through and maybe one person will get a little extra benefit.
Sara Harper:Yeah, well, in fact, mix it with the worst stuff because your quality brings up.
Craig Cameron:Like you said, a lot of the testing and stuff that's coming down the pipeline is going to make a big difference in that people will actually be able to tell to see the zinc.
Sara Harper:How much zinc is in your beef or how much beta carotene because it was raised on plants and all of that good stuff. Well, Deanna, I know you share this frustration of mine, we've talked about it many times. But do you hear that from people? If only more farmers were like you.
DeAnna Lozensky:Yes, if only more farmers, right?
Sara Harper:Yeah.
DeAnna Lozensky:And it is a frustrating aspect of it because I think that's very true that markets drive practice. Right. And so depending on your area, you have to grow what is being purchased. Okay? So when we're talking about this inner cropping and let's grow all of these things together, right? Let's grow peas, mustard and oats altogether. Diversity to your soil system all in one path. Let's do this. Guess who buys that? Guess who buys that mix? No one buys that mix. No one buys that mix. And so it is left to the farmer to separate that mix. And this is what I was talking about earlier on the on farm infrastructure. To even be able to manage something like that, in theory, it sounds amazing, but the separation of those inner crops to offer diversity to the soil system in a single growing season, it's a challenge, right? And so we wanted to grow milling oats. Well, we I say me. It's me. It's not me. I told my husband, I said, let's grow millions oats. I want to offer oatmeal through guardian grains. That's going to be my new offering this year. And he said, well, you've already added flour and pasta. And I said, yeah, I'm just going to add one more thing. And he said, well, find me the seed, I'll plant it. And so I chose a milling out that had maybe a little bit more aggressive root structure, a little bit taller biomass, right? Always putting soil health first. And so we did that. And in the midst of that have been being planted, I ran out of my Bob's Redmill oats that Kelly was making me for breakfast every day. And I said, could you make our Egyptian holist barley for breakfast instead? And he was like, Just give me whatever. And he did, and I started eating it, and I was eating it for a week, and I said, you really got to try this. And he said, okay. And he had been eating eggs and bacon, right? He's an eggs and bacon kind of guy. And he tried the Egyptian Hullis barley prepared like oatmeal. And he has. And that was in May, and he hasn't gotten back to eggs and bacon since. And as we are having Egyptian Halls barley for breakfast, and I call it naked barley because there's no hull on it, and one less processing step for me, right? And he said, I hate to ask, but what does this mean for those milling oats? And I was like, oh, yeah, I'm really sorry about that. I'm not going to be offering oatmeal from guardian grains. I'm going to do flakes naked barley instead. And he was like, oh, gosh. I was like, what? It's 18% protein instead of eleven. Right? They both are a great source of beta glucan, I say that to say that. I have 10,000 bushels of oats with nowhere to go, not one buyer, and they all qualify as a milling oats, and I don't have a buyer for them. So what happens to this 10,000 bushels of milling oats? It goes as animal feed, and it's just part of it. So that's what happens where people are growing corn and soy. They're growing corn and soy because that's where their buyers are.
Sara Harper:Yeah, absolutely.
DeAnna Lozensky:I would love to grow oats. It grew beautifully. It offers great benefit to our soil structure. Right? I have no buyer for that. So here it sits, 10,000 bushels. Just sitting here.
Sara Harper:Yeah.
Joni Kindwall-Moore:Yeah. And Diana, if you don't mind me adding to that, just because it's an interesting conversation because part of the issue that we're seeing with the Oat market path is the having them be gluten free, viable, because so much of the Oat market is driven by the ability to be test out as certified gluten free. And it's like, again, the reality for that, for producers and farmers, like, you don't have two compliance sitting around. Like, it's so interesting how, like, the market is now shaping that demand because Oats are in high demand. Like, it's crazy, but a lot of them have to be certified gluten free. How do we work with that? How do we help you? I want to help you.
Sara Harper:That's cool, right?
DeAnna Lozensky:No, it is a thing, but the market I'm directing it to isn't the gluten free market. Right? It's not even a regenerative market. This is a conventional commodity market, and I still can't find a buyer. So I'm just saying that grow oats, grow oats. We all want to eat oats and then there's no buyer for them. So you can imagine how excited my husband is about me growing 10,000 bushels of votes and having no place to put them. So it's a struggle.
Sara Harper:Yeah. No, it's well, just the whole fact that you built a path to turn your ancient grains into pasta and into flour. Because same with Jen. You know, Jen adding a mill to her manufacturing process. That wasn't the first thing you wanted to do. I mean, either of you, because it's expensive. It's a whole new thing to learn. It's a whole new complexity to add. But both of you and other farmers in our network that are doing this too, adding in processing capacity on the farm because the processors won't take it. They won't do it. Even if you would pay them to what they call it a toll processing fee to basically set aside what they're doing and process your stuff and then go back to what they're doing, rent the facility, essentially, they won't do it. I keep saying it because it's been years of me exploring how do we find, where do we find? Surely if someone's willing to pay you, you would do it, but they won't. And that stands in such stark contrast to all the demand you hear about. And I've read for years, consumer consumers and what they say they want, all the things, the laundry list of things they want. Regenerative meets it. Regenerative meets it and beyond. And so I really feel like we're at a point where people have to put up or shut up. Consumers have to actually buy this stuff that is really bringing this almost impossible quality to them and have to really buy it direct from the source. To know to your point, it's hard to know what is regenerative. But if you know the people and you know, we can hear their mindset and their practices and see the tests that show the outcomes, then you're as close to knowing as you're ever going to get. And you all are doing that. There are more in our network that are doing that. So that's my little soapbox. But anyway, continuing on, Jennifer, maybe let's jump to you off of that because you had a similar thing that you had to do with creating your own capacity to create an ingredient that was how you wanted it. Because if you wanted to dedicate your brand toward regenerative, you couldn't buy, you know, regenerative rice. You had to mill it yourself.
Jennifer Kocher:You know, after I met Adams through the network, he had the rice, but he just didn't know how I was going to get it and have it milled. And so he was able to find a cleaner that's nearby that cleaned it and d hauled it and sent it. Then we were able to send it directly to me, but that was an issue. I know that there were a lot of people who had called round to different mills and no one was willing to do smaller quantities. So I had found also through the network a contact who then led me to Reynolds Engineering, who had pulverizing mills that we could use for rice, which is a little different than the hammer mills and such that you would use for softer grains. So I did have to invest in that. I was able to get some money from the state of Ohio, but it was only maybe like a third of what it cost. And we did have a GoFundMe campaign that you helped with the video for that. And again, it's just trying to manage an entire other project of trying to raise funds that way and just not enough people there's not enough. I'd like to duplicate myself five times.
Sara Harper:Joanie, do you hear that, too? Like, if only there were more farmers.
Joni Kindwall-Moore:Yes. I mean, honestly, I know so many high quality farmers that are some of them very far along in their regenerative journey, some just getting started and needing that financial incentive to make the leap and buy some different equipment that they'll need, etcetera. And it's just a constant frustration for us that it's past market. You know, like right now we're buying some pros and millet from a farmer in North Dakota named Martin Gordon. Really great guy, fantastic farmer, interesting perspective on holistic management of his farming system, which he's doing a lot of road cropping, which is a passion point of mine because that is a part of the AG sector that needs a lot of help. And we are having trouble moving a couple of totes through dehauling and having it be still carrying the provenance. Like, he's certified organic and he's regenerative. He's working with Roc. We're almost through those hoops, and now it's like all these pieces in the middle that are just driving me crazy. To get it to where we can mill it, then we can put it into our product. There's a decentralization event occurring in this process and it's not being serviced very well. So we have movement and transition on the farming side. We actually do have movement and transition on the consumer side where we don't have enough entrepreneurial innovation and capital is in these middle steps of the process of like, how are we getting it from field to where it's going to reach the consumers? Because it's awesome if you can do the Gay brown type method where everyone comes to your farm and they're buying their meat and the eggs and whatever there. But if you live in a really rural area, there aren't enough people to support that. A, and B, there's a ton of people in the city that need really good quality food and they don't have local food system.
Sara Harper:Jen and I know, Joni, you really with retail and with focusing on dealing with customers and customer feedback. Do you get a sense that consumers, people are buying food and particularly natural food consumers? Do you think that they know about this gap and that the power that they would have just by asking if.
DeAnna Lozensky:They would ask their brands, if they.
Sara Harper:Would write in an email, which farmers are you working from? What are the practices? Because they have their standard non answer answers that they would email back to them. But the more that they get that input that consumers actually care about it, that's what starts to move.
Joni Kindwall-Moore:They're kind of getting there. Honestly, I think that consumers know that they want something better. Do they know it's regenerative? No, regenerative, for one, has too many syllables. Like it's a catastrophic word for the system to call it, but from a marketing perspective, it's kind of marketing suicide. And also there's no clear definition of what regenerative means and for good reason, because it's a dynamic continuum. It can't really be encapsulated into one little thing. So those are things that are harming the market, adoption of regenerative. But I think also there is a lesson, and somebody told me a really great example yesterday. They're like, if you would have done a consumer survey about if they needed a smartphone back in 2010, the vast majority of people would have said no. Why would we need to carry around a little computer? That's expensive. We have a phone, we have a computer. We don't need them combined. Well, Steve Jobs was like, they're going to want this, so we need to get it to them and then it will change the way the world looks at things. And I think regenerative up against a similar situation where I think we just have to deliver it to them and then they'll go, oh, where was this? Like, we needed this. It'll be a similar phenomenon. It's just going to take a lot of pushing and some brute force to bring this to the market. Honestly, you know, from a grain.
DeAnna Lozensky:We don't have any livestock that are domestic right. So what we have are the native species that are here and returning, which is awesome. Right? And that's been one of the really exciting things to watch about our system is to watch all the native species come back that were gone for a long time and to watch the reproduction of those species. Like our whitetailed deer are no longer having one fawn at a time, they're having two and three. So the reproduction side of that has been really interesting. And I attribute that 100% to soil health and regenerative practices and minimal disturbance. Right. And no insecticide, no fungicide. I think those are huge players in that from the grain perspective. So I don't have another outlet. The grain that we move through guardian grains is a fraction of a percent of what we grow. And it really is just to help me feel better about our grains. Not 100% getting commingled at the elevator with conventional grains. It's just a small outlet for me to know where the end user is. And there's a huge amount of like I said, there's a huge amount of stress that has come with the whole infrastructure piece on farm cleaning and hauling and things like that. But there's a whole nother side of it that has been super rewarding. And the accountability piece has been huge because dealing and going direct to consumer, which is I want to do more of, and I think it's the best way for people to really know their farmer is to come direct to the source. And so that's where I'm really focusing a lot of our marketing. But I think the important thing about that is that we have a huge sense of accountability of what we're doing. Because if I'm dealing direct to consumer now, there's no buffer. So if I screw up, that's on me. And so the choices I make on the farm directly reflect my customer. Right? So there are things that I'm flat out unwilling to do and sacrifice, like things that I'm not going to compromise on, like desecation and insecticide use and things like that. Because I am not going to let that interfere with how it affects the consumers health and my soil health. Right. I like the idea of diversity in the inner cropping and companion cropping. And it's awesome. The idea is such a pretty picture, all of these things growing together. But from a grain aspect, combining all of that together, it's not a salable product. It's not salable. There is a whole separate separation process of that. And they're not talking about that end part. Just scroll all these things together.
Joni Kindwall-Moore:It'll just be beautiful.
DeAnna Lozensky:And then what? Graze it with the cattle? I don't have I mean, I'm just saying that's not an option for me.
Sara Harper:To have Craig have a road trip, bring his cattle, come on over.
DeAnna Lozensky:That's something to explore later as more of our neighbors that do have cattle come into learning a lot more about rotational grazing and things like that. I think it's a good option for.
Sara Harper:Us as we wrap this up again back to the consumer. So, Deanna, you have a website for guardian grains and Craig. I know you're working on that. Again, on our new website, we are going to have links to all of your operations so people will be able to easily find you. And I just really want to encourage people to think about the investment in buying direct from farmers that are not only farming this way because that's fantastic enough, but taking that extra step to really get it in a form that you can buy. It's not just the grain from the field, it's pasta. It's fantastic pasta that people rave about with whole grain, has it all in there and nutrition and climate friendly and all of that. And committing to buy pasta from Deanna or beef from Craig or flour from Jay or maybe pick one and you're continuing to buy that almost like a subscription. My goodness, what do we pay for all of our streaming subscriptions, all of our entertainment, all of our Starbucks or any coffee shop, all the things that we seem to find money for that aren't nearly as important. And that's kind of what I just want to wave a flag and say. You can't get yourself off the hook so easily as to say, if only I could find it, because it's there. And we're increasingly at this site anyway, helping you find it. And now it's about making a commitment to supporting these people and realizing that, yes, shipping may cost more and it may be a pain and it may not compare with the value price that you're going to find at the grocery store because guess what? It's doing a whole lot more for your body and the planet than any of those brands.
DeAnna Lozensky:And I think that's a really good point. I think customers, especially our growing customer list, is so excited to be able to participate in a climate solution, a practice that is helping the climate and helping our farm people love that.
Sara Harper:Just appeal to the selfish nature of people wanting to feed their children nutrient rich food when the soil is exhausted, as it often is in conventional agriculture in mind, over and over and over again and not put back, not having this richness restored to it. Well, what kind of food is it producing? What kind of vitamins and minerals are you getting?
Joni Kindwall-Moore:Well, that's why it's really important for.
DeAnna Lozensky:Us to be working with Jill, right? Yes, that's one of the exciting things about working with Jill she's going through and going to be able to tell us like, these are the things that.
Sara Harper:This is the result of all of your great synergies coming together. Because that is the other thing about regenerative. It's why it's so hard to reduce it to a list. It's not a one for one it's a one and you get ten things in return. It's exponential. I'm so excited to introduce you all even more to consumers. And we're going to have a webinar and people are going to get a chance to ask you questions and you are going to be able to show, well, at least tell your experiences on the farm and the practices that you're doing. And people will be able to really start that process of committing to buying directly from people that are changing the world. And through that process, they can change the world too. You've been listening to Tasting Terroir, a podcast made possible by a magical collaboration between the following companies and supporters, all working together to help farmers, chefs, food companies and consumers to build healthier soil for a healthier world. Rhizotera Owned by Dr. Joe Clapperton, Rhizotera is an international food security consulting company providing expert guidance for creating healthy soils that yield tasty nutrientdensed foods. Check us out@rizotera.com. That's Rhizoterra.com and the Global Food and Farm Online Community, an adfree global social network and soil health streaming service that provides information and connections that help you apply the science and practice of improving soil health. Join us@globalfoodandfarm.com and from listeners like you who support us through our Patreon account@patreon.com, slash tastingteroir. Patrons receive access to our full length interviews and selected additional materials. Patrons will also have the opportunity to submit questions that we will answer on the podcast. Tune in next week to hear more interviews and insights with myself, Sarah Harbor and Dr. Joe Clapperton, as well as the regenerative farmers, chefs and emerging food. Companies in the Global Food and Farm Online community and beyond. If you like our work, please give us a five star rating and share the podcast with your friends. Thanks so much for listening and for helping us get the word out about this new resource to taste the health of your food. Until next week, stay curious, keep improving, and don't stop believing that better is. Possible when knowledge is available.